Clojurians Log v2

I've got a bit of a feedback regarding prepl, since it's still alpha/subject to change. If I understand it correctly, "programmable repl" purpose is to make it easy to write repl-like tools, whose output may be processed by programs first before presenting it to user. I like these semantics of continous notifications via outfn, but there are some annoyances with existing notifications and their order: - :tap results arrive in confusing order because it's async. Tap system should be synchronous, just as printing to *out* is, because it's a debug tool, so there is no need for top performance, but there is a need for understanding an order: print-based debugging is a valuable tool, and part of it is seeing in which order statements get printed. Mixing prints and tap, and a fact that :taps might arrive after :ret brings only confusion - I'd like to have another message to outfn indicating that the form was read (before evaluating it): it matches usual repl flow where you first submit a form, and then see prints and return values. Currently submitting a long-evaluating form to a prepl gives no feedback at all that something is happening. Tools should provide more immediate feedback. - :ms in :ret-messages is unnecessary. If you want to know execution time, just use (time ...). If you want to have execution time be a part of "programmable" API, I think there should be a better solution, because: - There is a lack of composability over input/output. Input is just a stream, and if you want some additional functionality, such as cancelable evaluations, or adding file/line/column annotations, or some kind of measurements over evaluated forms, it's really hard to do so by wrapping in-reader. But it can be done easily if prepl could accept a function that transforms forms that are read from it, and these transforms can be then taken into account by outfn. for example, input form (+ 1 2) might be transformed that way:

(let [start (System/nanoTime)
      ret (+ 1 2)
      ms (quot (- (System/nanoTime) start) 1000000)]
  {:ms ms
   :ret ret})

Isn't it expected though that some tap messages will be used across async boundaries? Can't sync those, right?

I haven't used the tap system much yet though, not sure

aren't tap and printing both inherently asynchronous because they can happen from multiple threads in arbitrary ways?

I guess you could block threads while print and tap buffers realign

Try to force some deterministic behavior... would be non-trivial though

that doesn't seem like a good idea

Well, it's nice to have async on the bottom and make the sync api on top anyway, so the syncing can be done just-in-time

I could definitely see vlaaad's ideas implemented on top of the tap system

on the points above: 1) :tap results are asynchronous, but so are the printing streams. I don't understand your assertion that it is synchronous. 2) the current behavior is the "usual" flow - send a form, get a result. there is no read-value step in a normal repl. the client knows what it is sending - it can print it if you want that, but I'm not sure I get why that's better 3) it's not necessary, but it's just a return attribute that you can consider optional. ignore if you like. 4) this is inherently a stream based api so that's the primary unit of composition. I'd say it's a non-goal to create a middleware-like system here, but there might be good use cases for plugging in some kind of server-side read or return transformation.

1 & 2. Yeah, I see your point, maybe I just got used to cursive repl showing sent form and printlns before return values. 3 & 4. Sure, I can ignore that, just want to point out that to me 3 looks like symptom of 4: you wanted feature X and hardcoded it, and other users have no way to inject their own functionality like that. Though I feel I'm mistaken, how can I compose streams? can you show an example?

just wrap prepl in something that affects the in and out streams

I'm trying to understand how should I wrap in - it's a LineNumberingPushbackReader. Suppose I want to provide my own execution time tracker like here:

(let [start (System/nanoTime)
      ret (+ 1 2) ;; <- `(+ 1 2)` is a form I receive in `in`
      ms (quot (- (System/nanoTime) start) 1000000)]
  {:ms ms
   :ret ret})

yeah, it's a lot of work. as I said above, there may be good use cases for plugging in some kind of server-side read or return transformation

oh, I found a renumbering-read and annotating forms like that: ^{:clojure.core/eval-file "a/b/foo.clj", :line 100, :column 1} (hi 1)

It feels there are some pieces of puzzle here, just need to figure out how to assemble them...

@slipset Regarding the digging you did on comparators in early April, and I mentioned that the comparator's guide doc should probably mention NaN's, it does now. You can search for a section starting with "Be wary" in the latest version of the guide here: https://clojure.org/guides/comparators