clojure-europe

For people in Europe... or elsewhere... UGT https://indieweb.org/Universal_Greeting_Time
dharrigan 2021-05-04T05:33:03.016900Z

Good Morning!

RAMart 2021-05-04T05:35:44.017100Z

Hi folks!

djm 2021-05-04T05:43:15.017900Z

👋

pez 2021-05-04T06:06:51.019Z

Morning (again). That bug on java.exe I mentioned the other day has been confirmed and is being tracked here: https://bugs.java.com/bugdatabase/view_bug.do?bug_id=JDK-8266473

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slipset 2021-05-04T06:11:16.019500Z

Congrats on finding a bug in java.exe. My rule number one is “It’s never the compiler”

slipset 2021-05-04T06:12:45.020900Z

Although, strictly speaking, it isn’t the compiler this time around either 🙂

pez 2021-05-04T06:13:28.021500Z

That’s what I told my family last week when I started to suspect java. “It is never Java’s fault, kids.” But it was this time.. 😃

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pez 2021-05-04T06:48:58.025700Z

Whoever processed the report at Oracle noted that the bug can be reproduced in JDK11 as well. I was pretty sure I had confirmed the opposite, but my Windows-fu is not what it could be. Managed to uninstall JDK16 properly after some fiddling and, yes, JDK11 has it too. Where has it been hiding all this time? The Clojure CLI runs into this bug pretty quickly if you want to give it some Clojure string as an argument…

pez 2021-05-04T06:49:21.025800Z

See this comment for repro proof: https://github.com/BetterThanTomorrow/calva/issues/1162#issuecomment-831716540

2021-05-04T08:03:14.026200Z

Morning

2021-05-04T08:03:39.026300Z

Are most just on openjdk?

borkdude 2021-05-04T08:05:28.026900Z

@pez If this error is so common with the Oracle stuff, maybe a better "workaround" is that people use AdoptOpenJDK ;)

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borkdude 2021-05-04T08:06:26.027500Z

I read somewhere that this other executable is some kind of symbolic link, maybe it's possible to follow the symbolic link to the "real" executable

thomas 2021-05-04T08:12:17.029600Z

morning, and well done @pez on finding a JVM bug, I once found a problem with the IBM JDK when running clojure. It caused a JIT failure, hard crash as well. got fixed quite quickly as well. thank to using some internal channels I think.

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ordnungswidrig 2021-05-04T08:18:58.029800Z

good morning!

javahippie 2021-05-04T08:20:26.030Z

Good morning!

2021-05-04T08:27:58.030400Z

pretty sure @thomas is a "made man" in IBM

thomas 2021-05-04T08:29:21.030900Z

yeah, that is why I had to leave 😉

2021-05-04T08:40:16.031200Z

I thought you'd just gone undercover

simongray 2021-05-04T08:47:16.031400Z

good morning

jasonbell 2021-05-04T08:53:09.031700Z

Morning

pez 2021-05-04T09:09:43.031800Z

If it links back to the working one and we can find it, that would be a nice workaround. However, it would be some strange symbolic link, because it is 60Kb big, while the working one is 50Kb.

borkdude 2021-05-04T09:10:54.032Z

can you inspect this file to see if it is in fact a symbolic link? the file size may be the size of the target file?

mccraigmccraig 2021-05-04T09:28:23.033600Z

do any of y'all have any experiences with implementing 4 day working weeks and consequent issues and impacts on productivity ?

borkdude 2021-05-04T09:32:25.033900Z

I have always worked 4 days (paid, let's say)

simongray 2021-05-04T09:49:38.035100Z

I currently work only 4 days a week (30 hours) since I dedicate every Wednesday to paternity leave

simongray 2021-05-04T09:50:54.037Z

hard to say what kind of effect it has on productivity. Presumably, it’s not a linear equation.

simongray 2021-05-04T09:53:47.041900Z

There’s some amount of fixed costs spent on meetings, but there is also a mental limit to how much actual work you can get done in a day. I read the book Deep Work a few years back, and the thesis there is that even the most efficient workers will only spend 3-4 hours on actual “deep” work on a given day since the brainpower is essentially spent at that point.

borkdude 2021-05-04T09:54:03.042500Z

I think productivity is strongly related with motivation. When I work 4 days a week I'm more motivated since I have enough time for something else. I would not be surprised if I am just as productive.

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mccraigmccraig 2021-05-04T09:54:12.042800Z

no, i wouldn't think it's linear - there does seem to be some reasonable evidence around that for some types of work it's roughly a productivity no-brainer... and the effects on employee motivation and wellbeing seem uncontestable

simongray 2021-05-04T09:55:41.043900Z

Yes, I agree with @borkdude that motivation is key, but it’s not the only factor.

pez 2021-05-04T09:56:29.044Z

Yeah, inspected it now. It is not a link, hard or symbolic. The javapath directory is a symbolic link, though, pointing to a sibling directory, similar to how a lot of “current version” is determined.

simongray 2021-05-04T09:57:10.045300Z

While people are motivated by different things, I think self-determination is the strongest contributor

pez 2021-05-04T09:57:11.045400Z

An important factor is how it fits with the schedules of those you work with.

borkdude 2021-05-04T09:57:20.045500Z

ok

simongray 2021-05-04T09:57:30.045800Z

True

mccraigmccraig 2021-05-04T09:59:14.048400Z

definitely @pez - we have enough people, and our comms are sufficiently well organised, that i think we can arrange full coverage of schedules

pez 2021-05-04T09:59:33.049Z

Due to deeply sad reasons I worked 80% a long while and made it mon-tue, and thu-fri. Taking Wednesday off. That was quite much better than prolonging the weekend, for me. At that place there where important sync meetings on Mondays and Fridays.

borkdude 2021-05-04T10:00:33.049700Z

I am also doing this, but not for sad reasons

pez 2021-05-04T10:00:50.050100Z

Happy reasons > sad reasons.

borkdude 2021-05-04T10:00:54.050200Z

imo it's a choice between more money or more free time. I value more free time over more money

pez 2021-05-04T10:02:11.051300Z

Me too. I’d love to work 3 days a week, payed. Then I can work 4 days unpayed. 😃

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mccraigmccraig 2021-05-04T10:03:20.053500Z

i'm coming at it from the other side @borkdude - i'm wondering whether to experiment with a 4 day week in my company, without reducing pay

borkdude 2021-05-04T10:04:27.054500Z

I have chosen to receive 20% less money

simongray 2021-05-04T10:04:34.054700Z

I think you can (and should), but if it’s productivity you’re after, maybe co-ownership is the solution

simongray 2021-05-04T10:05:00.055300Z

A lot of the literature I’ve read seems to link motivation to feeling like you have an actual stake in things

slipset 2021-05-04T10:06:30.057700Z

There is also a thing about employee loyalty. Compensation is all about giving something that is more worth to the employee than what it costs the employer 🙂

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mccraigmccraig 2021-05-04T10:06:46.057900Z

we give people options, but our ownership structure is fairly baked and i can't change that

slipset 2021-05-04T10:07:08.058700Z

So, I could imagine giving an employe 20% off for a 10% pay cut.

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simongray 2021-05-04T10:07:26.059100Z

Yeah, that would be a good way to do it

borkdude 2021-05-04T10:08:23.060500Z

Seems a good deal to me

slipset 2021-05-04T10:09:36.061600Z

One could also imagine working with an options program. You take a 20% pay cut for 20% time off, but you receive more options than what you’d normally do.

slipset 2021-05-04T10:09:43.061900Z

(if you have an options program)

simongray 2021-05-04T10:10:04.062800Z

Yup, that is a lot like what I imagined

pez 2021-05-04T10:11:54.063400Z

And for thee employee to provide something back that is more worth to the employer than the compensation.

djm 2021-05-04T10:12:01.063700Z

Someone here went to working four days/week recently, with a corresponding pay and annual leave reduction

djm 2021-05-04T10:12:45.064600Z

When it was announced, my boss emphasised those last parts a lot - I'm not sure if that's because he didn't want anyone else to do it, or if it's because he didn't want us to think it was unfair, or something else

borkdude 2021-05-04T10:14:02.066Z

I think that is fair. If you give 20% time off for a 10% pay cut, you are essentially motivating pretty much everyone to work 20% less (time). If you want this to happen to your company, do it, but else 20/20 seems a more logical deal.

borkdude 2021-05-04T10:15:11.066800Z

I can also imagine that there are people who like the 5 day workweek and they might maybe feel unfairly treated by a 20/10 deal (since they are essentially working the 5th day for half the pay compared to others)

jasonbell 2021-05-04T11:14:20.067900Z

You can do a four day work week but do x contracted hours per day. But as soon as there’s a customer involved, they’re not going to see your four day week the same way you do. So five days it is.

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mpenet 2021-05-04T11:16:38.070Z

I used to work 4 days a week for years, it was great. I had Wednesday off, never working more than 2 days in a row. I am not sure about productivity changes, I tend to be a bit obsessive with tasks for their duration, so sometimes the interruption was a bit annoying but I guess it depends what you do at work and it's very personal.

mpenet 2021-05-04T11:17:30.070700Z

About the relation with pay there is not an easy answer. I think some people will be just as productive, some not, so I don't know.

pez 2021-05-04T14:56:00.073100Z

In half an hour: https://www.meetup.com/Vaxjo-Functional-Programming/events/277486086 Wish me better luck with the live coding this time, friends!

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pez 2021-05-04T14:56:13.073500Z

It’ll be in English, btw.

pez 2021-05-04T19:45:00.076600Z

Good morning. The presentation went well! Probably a lot due to your wishes here. Live coding is great fun given the right context and also the format of that particular meeting when things are allowed to take their time is very nice.

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