hoplon

The :hoplon: ClojureScript Web Framework - http://hoplon.io/
2018-04-30T15:15:00.000472Z

@hiskennyness all very interesting. ive personally been refreshed the last year working in a bigger community (R), which i imagine is kind of similar to JS world in that individual programming experience approaches zero since the community is growing so fast

2018-04-30T15:15:57.000727Z

and so there are plenty of opportunities to foist weird ideas 😬

kennytilton 2018-04-30T15:21:05.000572Z

@thedavidmeister And now all the React+Redux people have to switch to Relay/GraphQL. What happened to “we do not tell you how to manage state”? I am also hearing interesting noises about not allowing business logic on the client. Is Facebook about to discover Rails? btw, server-side everything is how I got started in web programming, with Common Lisp driving qooxdoo. There’s nothing new under the sun.

2018-04-30T15:24:22.000336Z

hmmm

2018-04-30T15:24:28.000296Z

i'm looking at less server >.<

2018-04-30T15:24:31.000904Z

i'm just contrary

2018-04-30T15:24:39.000276Z

i guess in a sense the whole SPA thing is an efficiency hack... reduce latency by reducing server/client interaction to business-level protocol

2018-04-30T15:24:57.000487Z

hmm

2018-04-30T15:25:01.000064Z

i feel like server is a hack

2018-04-30T15:25:13.000812Z

because our "web" doesn't have a good p2p model yet

2018-04-30T15:25:35.000193Z

seems like the applicability of p2p depends on the type of app

2018-04-30T15:25:45.000656Z

maybe?

2018-04-30T15:26:16.000332Z

like in amazon's case... there's really only one source of truth about how many copies of a book they have in the warehouse

kennytilton 2018-04-30T15:26:42.000742Z

Ah, but as we data flowers know, the point sensitivity lets us minimize round trips. But yeah, no round trips has an edge.

kennytilton 2018-04-30T15:28:10.000059Z

I think “business logic on the client” is just another hogoblin to scare the kiddies, myself. The app is gonna go somewhere, and wherever it goes I control the code.

2018-04-30T15:28:53.000724Z

but why does amazon need a server with business logic to store data about the number of books they have?

2018-04-30T15:29:01.000309Z

i guess there is a category of things you cant do without building state javascript. like autocomplete. and so it would require changes to the browser model to remove all js/state from the client

kennytilton 2018-04-30T15:29:51.000448Z

“Minimize” is the wrong word. We get more roundtrips but with tiny payloads.

1👍
2018-04-30T15:30:24.000634Z

totally

2018-04-30T15:30:34.000719Z

there's things that you need "client" for

2018-04-30T15:30:42.000161Z

@thedavidmeister because only they know when books have been shipped, and shipping is transactional

2018-04-30T15:30:45.000736Z

the list of things you need "server" for gets a little shorter every year

2018-04-30T15:31:20.000497Z

that's just auth logic though

2018-04-30T15:31:33.000060Z

and yes, i agree that currently auth is something servers are still needed for

2018-04-30T15:31:41.000644Z

i can imagine an applicaiton-level http reverse proxy tracking sessions and sending structural diffs at the http level, with some kind of browser support

2018-04-30T15:31:52.000447Z

and all the session state is in a server-side db, with something like lambda functions doing the logic

2018-04-30T15:32:21.000663Z

i can imagine FB et al wanting to do this to be able to ship very minimal clients. so they don't need to worry as much about updating apps

2018-04-30T15:33:31.000293Z

not that this would be good for every app tho. since supporting the idea requires buy-in across every level

2018-04-30T15:33:45.000781Z

vs. the current spa situation which is, we need an http server that can send and receive json

2018-04-30T15:34:15.000757Z

this is something being worked on though

2018-04-30T15:34:28.000117Z

did you see my article on holochain?

2018-04-30T15:34:40.000489Z

they're looking at spas that are less server-y

2018-04-30T15:38:03.000785Z

i imagine things like webassembly will bring new stuff too

2018-04-30T15:38:06.000293Z

waves hands

2018-04-30T15:38:37.000700Z

if your SPA framework has to retreat to the server to get shit done, that's not the best sign 😕

2018-04-30T15:42:37.000283Z

oh, i'm not saying we should do like they're doing lol

2018-04-30T15:43:18.000487Z

just that the economies of FB and goog are weird and inscrutable. but if i try hard i feel like i can imagine why they would be doing things

2018-04-30T15:43:27.000322Z

haha yeah

2018-04-30T15:43:37.000102Z

webcomponents btw

2018-04-30T15:43:38.000554Z

so weird

2018-04-30T15:43:59.000564Z

they still claim they're the future but the spec has been in turmoil for many years now

2018-04-30T15:44:48.000482Z

honestly i'm pretty happy

2018-04-30T15:45:04.000111Z

i have an abstraction for the DOM that looks like HTML

2018-04-30T15:45:30.000713Z

the turmoil stresses me out

2018-04-30T15:46:12.000673Z

yeah what we have was and is still really good i think

2018-04-30T15:46:32.000241Z

not stressin' either 😄

2018-04-30T15:50:45.000758Z

FOMO

2018-04-30T15:50:50.000888Z

i learned this recently, it's the term lol

2018-04-30T15:51:37.000186Z

am i supposed to be learning a new framework or programming paradigm right now

2018-04-30T15:52:15.000472Z

oh yes i know all about FOMO haha

2018-04-30T15:54:33.000589Z

i'm too old to be relearning basic HTML every year 😞

2018-04-30T16:01:50.000127Z

but i get FOMO for other things for sure

kennytilton 2018-04-30T18:22:50.000830Z

I think I have proven that they can shut down the Web components initiative. That was looking a tad scary/convoluted. Just Write Functions(tm)!

2018-04-30T18:44:19.000541Z

... and in the cell graph, bind them