But on the other hand there is often not worth for business to change technology even for Clojure - seriously. Clojure is not so important to achieve deliver business values.
I guess I could do the same things in golang or whatever
So I don’t see it so evil, it really make sense 🙂
The point is we are so small parts in big companies we even don’t see this business values, so we don’t feel it.
But seeing things from big picture perspective makes it different
And on the end we want to have fun from our jobs, so while we believe in Clojure we want Clojure 🙂
> Clojure is not so important to achieve deliver business values It quite often happens to businesses, even successful ones hiring smart engineers, that they are running on constant complexity and debt. So a specific value proposition of Clojure would be that, typically, Clojure developers will have much greater/objective sensibility against complexity (or you can easily convince Clojure devs of that philosophy, anyway). Whereas in principle a Golang/node.js/... team has no philosophy whatsoever associated with it, and debates tend to be 10x more bitter/fruitless there.2👍
Very good point about reducing complexity as a philosophy. Many engineers are actually drawn to complexity like moths to a flame.
> that they are running on constant complexity and debt. Sure but Clojure is not solution. You can do it in any languages. I saw nightmare Clojure projects. Even worst than I saw in PHP 😉
Peoples mind is the solution. Then Clojure can be helpful 😉2👍
> Sure but Clojure is not solution.
I didn't say this, which is why I made sure to use qualifiers such as
> Very good point about reducing complexity as a philosophy I would say Clojure is about reducing verbosity. As a consequence reducing complexity. But I am not sure if it reduce complexity about things around, which are not verbosity.
> But syntax and verbosity is Oh it cut my words…. I don’t remember what I wanted to say 😄
> Who said this? me
> what are you even saying here? Verbs are missing I am pointing things which are not simpler in any way
comparing to other languages
But the huge advantages of Clojure is simple verbosity
Personally I feel when talking about Clojure decrease complexity we can talk only about this verbosity
Unless you see something else what I miss?
But I don’t feel using tools around are simpler, only this verbosity.
So when I see people repeating blindly Clojure is solution for complexity I would like to know how they get this idea 🙂
If they can point what Clojure really make simpler
It is just a syntax and tools around, not Holly Grail 🙂
Comparing ClojureScript complexity is even more interesting
But please don’t see it offensive. It is just my opinion after time of huge excitement and see it as salvation 🙂
Again I saw very complex lein files for clojurescript and Clojure
again it is how people write code
they can do it bad even in Clojure 🙂
and I saw so bad ideas about architecture….
So after all I am not sure how many high quality Clojure projects I saw
which are not open source
Just I want to say it doesn’t work like: use Clojure in company, then you will reduce complexity
hire better people on the first place
but sure Clojure in right hands is powerful!
I implicitly was referring to Simple made easy which many of us accept as the canon for these concepts (what is complexity? how does it relate to concision? what are clojure's goals?)
I’ve also seen bad Clojure projects. Perhaps Clojure also attracts its fair share of people who have a strong dose of NIH, and believe that Lisp and macros will help them, well, IH :)1👍
lisp curse innit1👍
Bad is bit of a strong word but I've pushed big refactoring initiatives in a few Clojure projects. And always I would find a very reasonable degree of willingness to accept different ways Elsewhere I would hit a wall of subjectivity and misguided concepts ("that's not OO" etc)
maybe that’s part and parcel of having walked away from dominant paradigms (imperative/OO)
as in, people who are open to clojure are probably a little more open minded about approach, on average
Yes but how Clojure as a language and tech around support it expect verbosity?
versus for example golang
I mean people use this complexity word with Clojure as some kin of magic. But it is just less verbosity.
Which of course matter
going this way I can also say they are people who accept more risks, because there is not a lot of jobs in Clojure. Especially outside US. They are early adopters, because Clojure is still something new for world.
but from my point of view the most important is to deliver business value
I like Cojure because syntax let me describe business needs in code in the way how my brain thinking
I don’t have to translate in my head my business thinking to objects and back2👍
that is not obviously advantage, but I can’t be sure how other people think in they heads and if only I feel it 🙂
Do you feel this kind of difference? > I don’t have to translate in my head my business thinking to objects and back1👍
I mean it is more natural for me to think about achievements / actions / operations, than objects and what I want to do with this objects. Especially when I am doing business things. But it is not something what I can experience in most of cases like doing FE web page, because there is no business there, only technical realisation. I hope you know what I mean 🙂
If if you leave voluntary? In the Netherlands it's 70%, but only if you get fired/not prolonged.
Ah, voluntary, I forgot about that. In this case you will get a 3 month suspension before receiving the benefit. But IIRC welfare is not affected by that.
If you are in a difficult situation in germany its not that uncommon to find a doctor that gives you attests for being ill for a longer time. If its a really stressful situation you might get attests for psychological problems. That gives you 6 weeks full pay from your employer. And if you didnt manage to find a job in that time you can stay home with an attest from a doctor up to 76 weeks I believe and receive again 66% of your last payment.
It's almost hard to become homeless in germany, and mostly it hits people that have psychological problems or that are unwilling to go through the bureaucratic jungle.
> But it is just less verbosity. Leaving aside that you meant more, this definition isn't really aligned with what Rich says or what clojurians typically mean with it
sure, but what else is simpler?
JVM? lein? error messages? debugging? profiling?
if I want to generate PDF in Clojure is it simpler? no 🙂
But syntax and verbosity is
If we really want to point things which are really simpler
but it is huge. I am not saying it isn’t
just after a few years of coding Clojure / CloureScript I started to see not only rainbows and butterflies 😉
I mean it is valuable to see downsides of your best tools 🙂