Clojurians Log v2

But on the other hand there is often not worth for business to change technology even for Clojure - seriously. Clojure is not so important to achieve deliver business values.

I guess I could do the same things in golang or whatever

So I don’t see it so evil, it really make sense 🙂

The point is we are so small parts in big companies we even don’t see this business values, so we don’t feel it.

But seeing things from big picture perspective makes it different

And on the end we want to have fun from our jobs, so while we believe in Clojure we want Clojure 🙂

> Clojure is not so important to achieve deliver business values It quite often happens to businesses, even successful ones hiring smart engineers, that they are running on constant complexity and debt. So a specific value proposition of Clojure would be that, typically, Clojure developers will have much greater/objective sensibility against complexity (or you can easily convince Clojure devs of that philosophy, anyway). Whereas in principle a Golang/node.js/... team has no philosophy whatsoever associated with it, and debates tend to be 10x more bitter/fruitless there.

Very good point about reducing complexity as a philosophy. Many engineers are actually drawn to complexity like moths to a flame.

> that they are running on constant complexity and debt. Sure but Clojure is not solution. You can do it in any languages. I saw nightmare Clojure projects. Even worst than I saw in PHP 😉

Peoples mind is the solution. Then Clojure can be helpful 😉

> Sure but Clojure is not solution. I didn't say this, which is why I made sure to use qualifiers such as typically

> Very good point about reducing complexity as a philosophy I would say Clojure is about reducing verbosity. As a consequence reducing complexity. But I am not sure if it reduce complexity about things around, which are not verbosity.

Again I saw very complex lein files for clojurescript and Clojure

again it is how people write code

they can do it bad even in Clojure 🙂

and I saw so bad ideas about architecture….

So after all I am not sure how many high quality Clojure projects I saw

which are not open source

Just I want to say it doesn’t work like: use Clojure in company, then you will reduce complexity

dreams 🙂

hire better people on the first place

but sure Clojure in right hands is powerful!

I implicitly was referring to Simple made easy which many of us accept as the canon for these concepts (what is complexity? how does it relate to concision? what are clojure's goals?)

I’ve also seen bad Clojure projects. Perhaps Clojure also attracts its fair share of people who have a strong dose of NIH, and believe that Lisp and macros will help them, well, IH :)

lisp curse innit

Bad is bit of a strong word but I've pushed big refactoring initiatives in a few Clojure projects. And always I would find a very reasonable degree of willingness to accept different ways Elsewhere I would hit a wall of subjectivity and misguided concepts ("that's not OO" etc)

maybe that’s part and parcel of having walked away from dominant paradigms (imperative/OO)

as in, people who are open to clojure are probably a little more open minded about approach, on average

Yes but how Clojure as a language and tech around support it expect verbosity?

versus for example golang

I mean people use this complexity word with Clojure as some kin of magic. But it is just less verbosity.

Which of course matter

going this way I can also say they are people who accept more risks, because there is not a lot of jobs in Clojure. Especially outside US. They are early adopters, because Clojure is still something new for world.

but from my point of view the most important is to deliver business value

I like Cojure because syntax let me describe business needs in code in the way how my brain thinking

I don’t have to translate in my head my business thinking to objects and back

that is not obviously advantage, but I can’t be sure how other people think in they heads and if only I feel it 🙂

Do you feel this kind of difference? > I don’t have to translate in my head my business thinking to objects and back

I mean it is more natural for me to think about achievements / actions / operations, than objects and what I want to do with this objects. Especially when I am doing business things. But it is not something what I can experience in most of cases like doing FE web page, because there is no business there, only technical realisation. I hope you know what I mean 🙂

> But it is just less verbosity. Leaving aside that you meant more, this definition isn't really aligned with what Rich says or what clojurians typically mean with it

sure, but what else is simpler?

JVM? lein? error messages? debugging? profiling?

if I want to generate PDF in Clojure is it simpler? no 🙂

But syntax and verbosity is

If we really want to point things which are really simpler

but it is huge. I am not saying it isn’t

just after a few years of coding Clojure / CloureScript I started to see not only rainbows and butterflies 😉

I mean it is valuable to see downsides of your best tools 🙂