jobs-discuss

Job hunting, interview process and anything related to the experience of a job writing the Clojure language.
kwladyka 2019-06-17T08:04:59.156600Z

But on the other hand there is often not worth for business to change technology even for Clojure - seriously. Clojure is not so important to achieve deliver business values.

kwladyka 2019-06-17T08:05:16.157Z

I guess I could do the same things in golang or whatever

kwladyka 2019-06-17T08:06:26.157600Z

So I donโ€™t see it so evil, it really make sense ๐Ÿ™‚

kwladyka 2019-06-17T08:08:36.158300Z

The point is we are so small parts in big companies we even donโ€™t see this business values, so we donโ€™t feel it.

kwladyka 2019-06-17T08:09:01.158700Z

But seeing things from big picture perspective makes it different

kwladyka 2019-06-17T08:09:47.159200Z

And on the end we want to have fun from our jobs, so while we believe in Clojure we want Clojure ๐Ÿ™‚

vemv 2019-06-17T08:22:59.160100Z

> Clojure is not so important to achieve deliver business values It quite often happens to businesses, even successful ones hiring smart engineers, that they are running on constant complexity and debt. So a specific value proposition of Clojure would be that, typically, Clojure developers will have much greater/objective sensibility against complexity (or you can easily convince Clojure devs of that philosophy, anyway). Whereas in principle a Golang/node.js/... team has no philosophy whatsoever associated with it, and debates tend to be 10x more bitter/fruitless there.

2๐Ÿ‘
orestis 2019-06-17T10:29:40.161100Z

Very good point about reducing complexity as a philosophy. Many engineers are actually drawn to complexity like moths to a flame.

kwladyka 2019-06-17T10:31:56.161900Z

> that they are running on constant complexity and debt. Sure but Clojure is not solution. You can do it in any languages. I saw nightmare Clojure projects. Even worst than I saw in PHP ๐Ÿ˜‰

kwladyka 2019-06-17T10:32:49.162600Z

Peoples mind is the solution. Then Clojure can be helpful ๐Ÿ˜‰

2๐Ÿ‘
vemv 2019-06-17T10:34:12.162700Z

> Sure but Clojure is not solution. I didn't say this, which is why I made sure to use qualifiers such as typically

kwladyka 2019-06-17T10:36:18.163900Z

> Very good point about reducing complexity as a philosophy I would say Clojure is about reducing verbosity. As a consequence reducing complexity. But I am not sure if it reduce complexity about things around, which are not verbosity.

kwladyka 2019-06-18T11:45:00.186900Z

> But syntax and verbosity is Oh it cut my wordsโ€ฆ. I donโ€™t remember what I wanted to say ๐Ÿ˜„

kwladyka 2019-06-18T11:45:20.187100Z

> Who said this? me

kwladyka 2019-06-18T11:45:59.187300Z

> what are you even saying here? Verbs are missing I am pointing things which are not simpler in any way

kwladyka 2019-06-18T11:46:10.187500Z

comparing to other languages

kwladyka 2019-06-18T11:46:29.187700Z

But the huge advantages of Clojure is simple verbosity

kwladyka 2019-06-18T11:46:52.187900Z

Personally I feel when talking about Clojure decrease complexity we can talk only about this verbosity

kwladyka 2019-06-18T11:47:03.188100Z

Unless you see something else what I miss?

kwladyka 2019-06-18T11:47:45.188300Z

But I donโ€™t feel using tools around are simpler, only this verbosity.

kwladyka 2019-06-18T11:48:58.188500Z

So when I see people repeating blindly Clojure is solution for complexity I would like to know how they get this idea ๐Ÿ™‚

kwladyka 2019-06-18T11:55:37.189200Z

If they can point what Clojure really make simpler

kwladyka 2019-06-18T11:56:27.189400Z

It is just a syntax and tools around, not Holly Grail ๐Ÿ™‚

kwladyka 2019-06-18T11:57:17.189600Z

Comparing ClojureScript complexity is even more interesting

kwladyka 2019-06-18T11:59:21.189800Z

But please donโ€™t see it offensive. It is just my opinion after time of huge excitement and see it as salvation ๐Ÿ™‚

kwladyka 2019-06-17T10:36:56.164400Z

Again I saw very complex lein files for clojurescript and Clojure

kwladyka 2019-06-17T10:37:03.164600Z

again it is how people write code

kwladyka 2019-06-17T10:37:20.165Z

they can do it bad even in Clojure ๐Ÿ™‚

kwladyka 2019-06-17T10:37:57.165700Z

and I saw so bad ideas about architectureโ€ฆ.

kwladyka 2019-06-17T10:38:13.166100Z

So after all I am not sure how many high quality Clojure projects I saw

kwladyka 2019-06-17T10:38:20.166400Z

which are not open source

kwladyka 2019-06-17T10:38:50.166900Z

Just I want to say it doesnโ€™t work like: use Clojure in company, then you will reduce complexity

kwladyka 2019-06-17T10:39:05.167200Z

dreams ๐Ÿ™‚

kwladyka 2019-06-17T10:40:16.167500Z

hire better people on the first place

kwladyka 2019-06-17T10:41:53.168100Z

but sure Clojure in right hands is powerful!

vemv 2019-06-17T11:00:09.168200Z

I implicitly was referring to Simple made easy which many of us accept as the canon for these concepts (what is complexity? how does it relate to concision? what are clojure's goals?)

orestis 2019-06-17T12:12:22.170100Z

Iโ€™ve also seen bad Clojure projects. Perhaps Clojure also attracts its fair share of people who have a strong dose of NIH, and believe that Lisp and macros will help them, well, IH :)

1๐Ÿ‘
alexlynham 2019-06-17T12:26:24.170400Z

lisp curse innit

1๐Ÿ‘
vemv 2019-06-17T12:33:44.173800Z

Bad is bit of a strong word but I've pushed big refactoring initiatives in a few Clojure projects. And always I would find a very reasonable degree of willingness to accept different ways Elsewhere I would hit a wall of subjectivity and misguided concepts ("that's not OO" etc)

alexlynham 2019-06-17T13:15:02.174300Z

maybe thatโ€™s part and parcel of having walked away from dominant paradigms (imperative/OO)

alexlynham 2019-06-17T13:15:29.174900Z

as in, people who are open to clojure are probably a little more open minded about approach, on average

kwladyka 2019-06-17T13:16:38.175Z

Yes but how Clojure as a language and tech around support it expect verbosity?

kwladyka 2019-06-17T13:16:52.175200Z

versus for example golang

kwladyka 2019-06-17T13:17:28.175400Z

I mean people use this complexity word with Clojure as some kin of magic. But it is just less verbosity.

kwladyka 2019-06-17T13:17:49.175600Z

Which of course matter

kwladyka 2019-06-17T13:24:57.177500Z

going this way I can also say they are people who accept more risks, because there is not a lot of jobs in Clojure. Especially outside US. They are early adopters, because Clojure is still something new for world.

kwladyka 2019-06-17T13:25:20.177900Z

but from my point of view the most important is to deliver business value

kwladyka 2019-06-17T13:25:59.178800Z

I like Cojure because syntax let me describe business needs in code in the way how my brain thinking

kwladyka 2019-06-17T13:26:44.179300Z

I donโ€™t have to translate in my head my business thinking to objects and back

2๐Ÿ‘
kwladyka 2019-06-17T13:27:23.180100Z

that is not obviously advantage, but I canโ€™t be sure how other people think in they heads and if only I feel it ๐Ÿ™‚

kwladyka 2019-06-17T13:28:37.180700Z

Do you feel this kind of difference? > I donโ€™t have to translate in my head my business thinking to objects and back

1๐Ÿ‘
kwladyka 2019-06-17T13:33:16.183100Z

I mean it is more natural for me to think about achievements / actions / operations, than objects and what I want to do with this objects. Especially when I am doing business things. But it is not something what I can experience in most of cases like doing FE web page, because there is no business there, only technical realisation. I hope you know what I mean ๐Ÿ™‚

gklijs 2019-06-17T14:26:51.183400Z

If if you leave voluntary? In the Netherlands it's 70%, but only if you get fired/not prolonged.

sveri 2019-06-17T14:36:20.183600Z

Ah, voluntary, I forgot about that. In this case you will get a 3 month suspension before receiving the benefit. But IIRC welfare is not affected by that.

sveri 2019-06-17T14:43:39.183800Z

If you are in a difficult situation in germany its not that uncommon to find a doctor that gives you attests for being ill for a longer time. If its a really stressful situation you might get attests for psychological problems. That gives you 6 weeks full pay from your employer. And if you didnt manage to find a job in that time you can stay home with an attest from a doctor up to 76 weeks I believe and receive again 66% of your last payment.

sveri 2019-06-17T14:44:43.184Z

It's almost hard to become homeless in germany, and mostly it hits people that have psychological problems or that are unwilling to go through the bureaucratic jungle.

vemv 2019-06-17T15:55:55.184200Z

> But it is just less verbosity. Leaving aside that you meant more, this definition isn't really aligned with what Rich says or what clojurians typically mean with it

kwladyka 2019-06-17T16:20:03.184400Z

sure, but what else is simpler?

kwladyka 2019-06-17T16:20:15.184600Z

JVM? lein? error messages? debugging? profiling?

kwladyka 2019-06-17T16:20:53.184800Z

if I want to generate PDF in Clojure is it simpler? no ๐Ÿ™‚

kwladyka 2019-06-17T16:21:03.185Z

But syntax and verbosity is

kwladyka 2019-06-17T16:21:29.185200Z

If we really want to point things which are really simpler

kwladyka 2019-06-17T16:21:51.185400Z

but it is huge. I am not saying it isnโ€™t

kwladyka 2019-06-17T16:23:59.185700Z

just after a few years of coding Clojure / CloureScript I started to see not only rainbows and butterflies ๐Ÿ˜‰

kwladyka 2019-06-17T16:24:39.185900Z

I mean it is valuable to see downsides of your best tools ๐Ÿ™‚