jobs-discuss

Job hunting, interview process and anything related to the experience of a job writing the Clojure language.
kwladyka 2020-11-22T15:13:31.094800Z

Hey, do you think is it possible to do something for Clojure community to remove remote barrier of hiring people abroad US? Is anyone already engaged and I can help somehow? I am in Poland, I am working for US company and it is really not an issue from bookkeeping perspective or organization of work depend on time zone. It is easy to do it as B2B. If there are people who want to change this situation we can organize somehow. This is unnecessary limitation for US companies to hire the best developers and limitation for developers in Europe and other countries to get good job. It works very good. Any brave souls here to join, organize and change this?

kwladyka 2020-11-23T09:28:40.101800Z

> I talked to some people before that said their businesses had legal restrictions to hire someone abroad. But I don’t know much about this. And from my point of view, this should be the only thing prohibiting this kind of arrangement to work. It is true, but not in B2B case

kwladyka 2020-11-23T09:28:48.102Z

*Business to Business

kwladyka 2020-11-23T09:29:20.102200Z

but all in all if there is community here which want to do something with that?

kwladyka 2020-11-23T09:29:36.102400Z

If we want to fight for new better world 😉

danielsz 2020-11-23T09:55:06.102600Z

When you set yourself up as a company (as I have), you can indeed do business with any company in the world, but you become a contractor, not an employee. My experience has shown that many companies shun to work with contractors because they have less leverage over them. I think it's a question of power.

kwladyka 2020-11-23T10:28:38.102800Z

contractor in European meaning, US has different law for contractors

kwladyka 2020-11-23T10:29:06.103Z

it depends on people

kwladyka 2020-11-23T10:29:56.103200Z

B2B is just better (less taxes and less protections for workers) way of hiring and employers

kwladyka 2020-11-23T10:30:19.103400Z

but some people think regular workers are more loyal which is bullshit 🙂

gklijs 2020-11-23T15:57:01.103600Z

Isn’t culture or the time difference more of a problem? Like you said you can do it b2b and it should be that difficult. Only other thing I can think of that might be an issue is accountability in that case.

kwladyka 2020-11-23T16:25:56.103800Z

people mainly just say “no” because of the rule. They only hire, they don’t make such decisions and don’t care.

kwladyka 2020-11-23T16:26:06.104Z

HR companies don’t care too

kwladyka 2020-11-23T16:26:22.104200Z

client said in US, then wouldn’t propose somebody outside

kwladyka 2020-11-23T16:26:42.104400Z

bookkeeping is not an issue at all for both sides

kwladyka 2020-11-23T16:27:12.104600Z

time difference works fine, but of course probably depend on company

kwladyka 2020-11-23T16:27:22.104800Z

So far I have never had an issue about that

kwladyka 2020-11-23T16:28:23.105Z

but still I posted here more to wake up community, write testimonial and share the true with people in US 😛 just do something and asking if there is someone here who care too?

gklijs 2020-11-23T16:54:44.105200Z

I understand, but I don’t really care. If past half year taught me anything, it’s that I don’t really like 100% remote.

2020-11-28T20:25:23.119500Z

On contrary I care and has been working 100% remotely already for 5 years or so and cannot imagine working in an office anymore. During this time for 2 companies from US of which one was b2b and one employee position. In case of employment the company hired a proxy company in Poland to handle all the quirks of local low. In case of b2b I just signed electronic agreement and saw money beweekly on my Payoneer account, no more formalities. What counted every time were the results, but I think there is still mental model in majority of companies which afraid of remote work, that if the employee sits in the office then is somehow monitored better than when left alone. Still probably there is some truth in it as remote work is not for everyone..but this is a different topic. I think the reason why many US remote work is closed in US is that from time to time people tend to meet in one place to integrate, see face to face and make relationships better. This is a problem when employees are spread around the world (mostly the cost is the reason). I know also a few companies in Poland which only hire in PL for the same reason. I've never thought of it as a myth that working with people from foreign countries is problematic, but I'm happy to hear other opinions.

gklijs 2020-11-29T09:55:59.121800Z

At least in the Netherlands there are some actual horror stories. But those are mostly about outsourcing all of the development work to teams abroad, which is entirely different from having all devs remote.

Ben Sless 2020-11-22T20:27:52.098700Z

From my understanding the crux of the issue is the company needing to incorporate in each country and comply with said country's employment laws. It's a lot of overhead for a small company. You could create a sort of intermediary company to facilitate this but then employees would be se facto employed by it, not the contracting company. Some people might not want to work as de-facto contractors.

kwladyka 2020-11-22T20:49:21.098900Z

But this is not true when US companies cooperate with European developers in B2B models. No issue about law, no overhead. Just a myth.

kwladyka 2020-11-22T20:50:03.099100Z

there are many people in Europe who want to work in B2B model. Here we even prefer this as remote workers.

2👍
kwladyka 2020-11-22T20:50:26.099300Z

contractor mean something different in US vs Europe

kwladyka 2020-11-22T20:51:40.099500Z

but my post is more about do something to change situation, making people in US aware how easy it is and people in Europe are really fine to work in B2B model.

kwladyka 2020-11-22T20:52:53.099700Z

Because it is so big misunderstanding which is happening by years. I have will to write some articles and maybe do more. But my question is if anyone want to join to this? Together we can figure out how to make people aware they fear of myth.

Ben Sless 2020-11-22T21:02:15.100Z

By B2B you mean they will be employees of the European company which will be contracted by the US company? That's essentially contractor work, no? (I don't dislike the idea BTW, I'm also a developer locates outside the US)

kwladyka 2020-11-22T21:15:27.100200Z

in Europe (I don’t know if in each country) we can easy make 1 person company and make 100% normal agreement like B2B. This law is different, than in US as far as I know. We don’t need company in the middle, we can do it ourselves. For example I have legal company with all rights and can make agreements like company.

kwladyka 2020-11-22T21:16:25.100400Z

so there is no need for the *extra* EU company, because developers can handle this themselves and this is popular in EU.

kwladyka 2020-11-22T21:17:01.100600Z

so from point of view of US company they make an B2B agreement with 1 person developer company and don’t care about law in EU.

kwladyka 2020-11-22T21:17:45.100800Z

and once again as far as I know contractor in US means something different, than in EU. So I don’t use this word.

bartuka 2020-11-22T22:27:52.101Z

That is exactly the same case for brazilian developers. I can open a 1 person company very quick and be responsible to comply with all legal taxes to keep my one-man-show open and to inform my country's central authorities about the money I receive as payments.

bartuka 2020-11-22T22:32:18.101200Z

I can even apply to get a valid SWIFT/BIC code (as I have a company providing services abroad) to receive payments in a regular bank transfer. So the only thing the US/EU company needs to do is to receive my invoice and pay accordingly.

bartuka 2020-11-22T22:33:33.101400Z

I talked to some people before that said their businesses had legal restrictions to hire someone abroad. But I don't know much about this. And from my point of view, this should be the only thing prohibiting this kind of arrangement to work.

bartuka 2020-11-22T22:38:53.101600Z

(it is so common to have companies like these in Brazil, that we have some companies to do all the paper work for you and handle all the hard work for less than 30 USD/monthly.)