jobs-discuss

Job hunting, interview process and anything related to the experience of a job writing the Clojure language.
solf 2021-04-27T01:55:29.103Z

Whenever I search for clojure jobs in “standard” job engines (linkedin, http://angel.co, google, etc… not much choice here in asia) 90% of matches have something like this:

Fluency in Clojure, Scala or Java is required
or
Fluent in at least one JVM language (Java/Scala/Clojure)
What’s up with that? They seem to be looking with experience with any language that runs on the JVM, but that doesn’t make sense to me. Java and Clojure are vastly different languages. Is it safe to think those are jobs descriptions written by non-technical people who just bundle together all JVM languages they found on google, and nothing to do with clojure?

Faris 2021-04-27T13:32:57.109800Z

I feel ya @dromar56, I live in Malaysia and the only way I could get a Clojure job was going the remote route.

2021-04-27T02:28:17.103400Z

Few different causes: • Being a jvm shop, they might actually have code in all those languages, or they're planning to break into one of those languages. • Skills learned from running the jvm in production can be transferable - hooking up a debugger to a running jvm process or knowing how to configure it will look similar enough across multiple languages • Knowing the java standard library is useful for all those languages Usually when I specifically see the java/scala/clojure combo I assume what they're trying to be a mostly functional shop and may have code in two or even all three of those languages. If a recruiter was spamming languages they'd add kotlin or groovy as well

seancorfield 2021-04-27T02:57:05.103600Z

I have to say, I've never seen Java thrown in with Clojure like that. I've seen Java/Scala together. But I think @scriptor may well be right that it suggests a JVM-based shop that is at least looking at a functional style.

seancorfield 2021-04-27T02:58:33.103800Z

@dromar56 Maybe you can post a few links to jobs you've found? I'm really curious to see what else they are asking for (and, perhaps, which companies they are)?

seancorfield 2021-04-27T03:54:53.104500Z

Wow, those are bizarre job listings! Each one of them has a ridiculous "scatter gun" range of skills. I have never seen anything like that!

seancorfield 2021-04-27T03:59:04.104700Z

It's like "the ideal candidate will know every programming language and every integration tech too" -- C/C++ and JVM languages and Python and Kafka and... WAT?

Aron 2021-04-27T04:08:09.104900Z

I do see these kinds of job listings all the time, they are the norm so to say. OTOH, if you are looking job listings on linkeding, I would say you could do better, that's probably not the right place.

solf 2021-04-27T04:22:39.105100Z

Sadly… not really

solf 2021-04-27T04:24:20.105300Z

There’s only one proper clojure job listing in Singapore for the last month, and it’s only on linkedin (or maybe in other generalist job aggregators, not better).

solf 2021-04-27T04:25:07.105600Z

Back when I was in Europe, I never had to look at linkedin offers :man-shrugging:

Aron 2021-04-27T04:33:59.105800Z

I see, I have no experience with Singapore, so that's probably why.

Aron 2021-04-27T04:34:25.106Z

Although the number of 100% remote jobs that don't care where you live is not zero.

the2bears 2021-04-27T04:38:39.106200Z

I hate these "false positives". I see it too, a lot. Companies writing their job description without really knowing what they want. Throwing every and any buzz word into the script.

seancorfield 2021-04-27T04:54:55.106500Z

Our industry sucks at hiring 😞

solf 2021-04-27T05:07:44.106700Z

I need a visa to stay in Singapore atm, can’t look for remote jobs… Otherwise 😄 It’s probably worse in the rest of asia. We take some things for granted in the western programming job-sphere

Aron 2021-04-27T05:12:16.107Z

why 'our industry'? I didn't see better hiring practices from other industries (but seen much much much worse!)

solf 2021-04-27T05:13:59.107200Z

Ah, I’m talking more specifically about clojure jobs (or other functional/niche languages) in asia

solf 2021-04-27T05:14:32.107400Z

There’s just not much adoption here

West 2021-04-27T08:58:23.107600Z

Is it possible to be an intern without being enrolled in college? I really need some experience and I feel like I'm just spinning in circles trying to build a CRUD app to show as a portfolio project. Hi, I'm a college dropout who recently discovered the joy of using Clojure. None of you would want to hire me full time just as I am. I get it. I just want to work on something and show my value in real life. What can I do? Is there something I can do to show my skills? Can I build something within a deadline to prove my abilities? If it sounds like I'm desperate, that's because I am. I really don't want to go bag groceries or something stupid because I can't prove any other experience.

futuro 2021-04-28T20:58:50.123800Z

I've found startups can be a good entry point, as they have less capital and can be more willing to "take risks" with someone that doesn't have as much experience. I re-entered the developer career path by joining just such a startup, and my FT gig at that point was enterprise customer support (not my favorite job).

p-himik 2021-04-27T09:55:20.107800Z

AFAIK different countries have different meaning behind "college", so it's not that clear what level of education you have.

p-himik 2021-04-27T09:55:48.108Z

But still - I'm a university dropout. Never regretted it, but I definitely got lucky a few times. Although this only answers your very first question.

West 2021-04-27T10:04:57.108300Z

Ok, so I’m in the USA. College and university are interchangeable terms. It’s just whatever is after high-school.

West 2021-04-27T10:09:37.108500Z

Basically I’m in a position where, if I don’t get my skills good enough to be hired and I’m out of savings, I’ll have to take any shit job I can get. Grocery store, gas station, cook, whatever. I really don’t want to do that. I know it’s gonna eat all my energy up, so I’ve been using my time just learning and working on my personal projects for 8-12 hours a day, no days off. I enjoy it, but I’m also starting to feel stressed out from the pressure. I’ve never put myself through any pressure before, so maybe it’s a good thing I’m working so hard now. I know what happens when I take something that I hate. I can hardly last 3 months in it. I don’t want that to happen again. I just want to move forward in my life. Sorry if this isn’t the appropriate place to be venting like this.

p-himik 2021-04-27T10:13:14.108800Z

Do you need a proper job or a way to convert your time into money using your skills? If the latter, then freelancing is also an option. If you find the amount of competition suffocating, try platforms that pre-screen their candidates in advance.

West 2021-04-27T10:21:46.109Z

I guess the latter then. Then all I would need is a way to sell my skills. Should I just go to random businesses in my area and ask if they have/need a website?

p-himik 2021-04-27T10:24:33.109200Z

Can't answer that question because I've never done it and I've never heard any success/failure stories either. Personally, I would recommend finding freelance platforms with pre-screening. If you're interested in my specific experience with a specific platform, write me a DM.

West 2021-04-27T10:25:35.109400Z

Ok, I was just gonna ask about that. Thank you.

Faris 2021-04-27T13:32:57.109800Z

I feel ya @dromar56, I live in Malaysia and the only way I could get a Clojure job was going the remote route.

2021-04-27T13:47:06.110Z

I suggest you to choose some well known Clojure projects and contribute to them. Keep track of what you did, and make it your portfolio. That's a nice way to show what you can do, and in the process you get to know people and people will get to know you.

1➕
2021-04-27T13:50:36.110200Z

I enjoyed your contribution on the Girouette project, and I think you should join bigger projects' communities, for example the ones used in production by companies.

pithyless 2021-04-27T14:10:02.110400Z

@c.westrom just another data point - some projects (eg https://github.com/athensresearch/athens) and platforms like https://functional.works-hub.com/ are paying bounties to work on open-source issues. It's obviously not as great as the stability of full-time employment, but it may be an auxiliary way to raise some capital and your developer profile

West 2021-04-27T14:27:19.111500Z

@pithyless Ok this is good. I could definitely work on other projects. I'm gonna look into this more.

Eric Ihli 2021-04-27T20:07:49.112300Z

Are you ready to and have you been applying to jobs? After years of dabbling in code, I spent ~6 months ramping up full-time in JavaScript and found a good job. It took about 150 applications, which led to about 15 technical interviews, 4 onsites, and 2 offers. Someone with less experience could have probably had a similar outcome with more applications. It's very much a numbers game regardless of how little/much experience you have.

West 2021-04-27T21:08:20.112500Z

I guess I haven’t tried applying to most positions. I’m trying to find ones that at least aren’t looking for “senior developers”.