Clojurians Log v2
off-topic
Does anyone use par-infer anymore?
I stopped using it quickly, because it kept messing up my code. Basically makes me remember why I hate Python
use it all day every day in Vim via https://github.com/eraserhd/parinfer-rust, I will never go back to editing Clojure code any other way
I use parinfer all day inside #cursive
I use Parinfer all day, every day inside Atom
Sweet. Only just discovered it (new to clojure) and I couldn’t tell if it was still in favour since the repos for vs-code / atom / emacs haven’t been touched in years
Clojure has a lot of repos that are "done" and haven't been updated for ages because they tend to address small, focused problems that can actually have "complete" solutions.
You'll find there's a lot less churn in Clojure libraries than a lot of other tech (esp. JS, if you have any experience with that).
That’s interesting. I guess I was surprised since I thought some of the editors would break functionality more often.
if you want to know about the status of various parinfer things, #parinfer might not be a bad place to query at e.g., there was a query regarding vscode support there recently
I was trying the extension and it seems a whole lot buggier than the demo on https://shaunlebron.github.io/parinfer/
Dealing with my wife's brand new mb16 inch maxed (from work) , it's a total disaster so far: random ext screen disconnect, crashes, battery drain in like an hour from full, screen flickering... I guess that might be the year of linux on the desktop after all, but for the wrong reasons
I bought the latest MBP before the 16" with the dreaded keyboard. I thought it would suck, but also didn't want to switch. It's held up fine for 1.5 year now.
But I might switch when I need a new one. I'm preparing mentally to say goodbye to macOS, getting my photos out of http://Photos.app etc.
I have a PC with Windows + WSL2 which I'm really satisfied with. I might switch to full Ubuntu or Win+WSL2 on a new laptop as well in the future.
She didn't want to switch either, but she can't work with that. Will likely trade it for an x1 or one of the beefy dell laptops
@mpenet Can you return the model?
I mean, this is not a good product it sounds like
Yes it's a work machine, IT will take it back
Congrats
If she's not ready to switch to linux fully, I recommend WSL2, it's really good
She'll likely go for windows, stuff she uses runs fine on it
yeh, so you can install WSL2 on it and get some decent linux environment on it for scripting tasks
I had seen some complaints on twitter about the 16inch, particularly the high end ones, thought it was bad luck
Guess not
there's always complaints online about everything
She doesn't need linux :)
True
especially popular products
But you will need linux if you need to help her out ;)
People are more vocal when things break
I barely understand what she does :)
haha
I just ordered the KDE Slimbook that came out this summer and am going to put openSUSE Leap on it
I have a lot of affection towards openSUSE but I have no idea where it's going. Its future is too murky, I wouldn't install it on a new machine (I do have it on a laptop)
openSUSE isn't going anywhere but forward. They have a corporate-backed base with SUSE Linux Enterprise, and the community is going strong.
I know about their organizational structure. I even had a chance to use SLES, I just hear they're going through some organizational strife
It sucks, because I like the distro
There are definitely quality problems, but the newest keyboard is much better
That being said I’ve destroyed like, 5 or 6 MBPs in the last couple years
3 work ones, 2 personal
Many different year models, too. All through basic usage
My hope is that the Apple silicon ones will have better quality control; I haven’t found a laptop that can compare to a MacBook in terms of trackpad and physical profile
for the price the quality issues are really bad... I think the machine in question is ~4k euros
This makes me dread the day my 2012 Pro fails me
yep, although @mpenet, I compared machines with comparable specs (64GB, 1GB SSD, 8-core i9) from other brands and they aren't that far off, maybe 500 dollars which I don't consider a dealbreaker for a high-end laptop.
There's a Clojure thread on Hacker news front-page now! 🎉
sure, I mean for a thing priced that high you would expect better quality, you're not buying a chromebook, then I didn't compare with the others, it's probably similar sure
@hewrin Let's wait for the new ARM stuff, prices will likely drop more
Probably just an unlucky batch. I also know people who bought the 16" and they're fine
surely, otherwise it would be all over the news
I’ve been happy with the new 16”MBP. Not maxed out though
I am on my second xps13 running linux (I think I had the first one lasted 3-4 years, had some battery issues in the end etc), prior to that I was getting whatever the latest model maxed out macbook pro from work and using osx. I was getting so fed up with osx, I didn't really want to touch the macbook outside of work, and I had a chromebook that I had rooted and installed fedora on, and I liked that a lot, so I thought I'd get the xps13 as a personal laptop to use outside of work. Then I lost that job, had to send the macbook back, and having been using the xps13 for everything(both on the xps13 and with the macbook pro I do most of my dev work ssh'ed into a vm anyway) ever since
I have a beater laptop with windows 10 on it because I used to need skype for business for work, and I was thinking I might give it to my parents. Just the process of trying to get it to a fresh state without all my work related junk on it made me want to throw it in the river.
I am a very happy xps13/linux user as well, have one from work and one personal
ran fedora on a 3rd gen x1 carbon. fantastic machine. would get another one if i didn't end up on a mac this time around
I've been an Apple customer since the early '90s and I used to love their laptops but I haven't bought a Mac laptop since they introduced that silly touch bar -- I bought a Dell XPS12 several years ago so I could have a touchscreen laptop for traveling/casual use but it was underpowered for development. I recently bought a Surface Laptop 3 (16GB RAM, 256GB SSD) and I love that. Definitely fast enough for dev work and I have WSL2 installed with Ubuntu and VcXsrv (Xlaunch) for all development: I run Atom and Reveal (and sometimes a Chrome browser) on WSL2 via Xlaunch. My main dev machine has been a 27" iMac since 2012(!) provided by work but when it finally fails, I may just get a huge external display for the Surface Laptop and use it as my main dev machine.
If anyone has recommendations for 64GB RAM laptops with new Ryzen processors, I'm always interested in that.
Well, the KDE Slimbook has that. Ryzen 4800H, and everything up to 64GB of RAM
Nice, for 1500 euros a 64GB model with 1TB Samsung SSD and 4800H Ryzen processor... 1kg weight
@zilti Do you have any experience with this brand? It's probably one of those Clevo-based brands like Tuxedo and System76?
I'm in the market for a new laptop this year to replace my 2012 MacBook Pro. I probably would've bought a new Mac this year if Apple hadn't announced the move to ARM. But I'm really nervous about doing so. I can't afford to spend that amount of money on something that isn't the best laptop that money can buy. Like a Mac used to be.
@cdpjenkins You could build yourself a PC in the interim, while we're at home anyway and then wait for the ARM move. Lots cheaper to build your own machine.
@borkdude not directly, I just ordered mine recently, but there have been lots of positive reviews, like this one: https://pointieststick.com/2020/07/23/the-superfast-ryzen-powered-kde-slimbook/ the author there compares it with the HP Spectre x360 he had before in terms of quality. And yes, afaik it is one of these barebones. Schenker and Tuxedo also use it as a base for their laptops
That's one thing I didn't consider... Would work if I decided to go back to Linux (which I keep talking about doing every time a new Mac comes out that I don't want to buy).
I use a Thinkpad X1 Extreme. Love it.
@zilti Even good battery life, nice. The trackpad: yes, once you're used to macbook, it's only downhill probably
(however, I am mostly on huge desktops 🙂 ) My X1 is my adhoc machine
@borkdude only downside is that it doesn't come with DisplayPort 😕
@cdpjenkins I did this: https://blog.michielborkent.nl/2020/07/26/remote-wsl2-clojure/
tl;dr: buy yourself a good PC and you can work on it remotely from any cheap laptop with lower hardware specs
Nice... I had not considered that (and definitely hadn't considered WSL)...
Quite happy with my Dell Latitude 7490 (32GB)
Most of the literature I can find on functional user interfaces focuses on FRP which emphasizes the "how" of ui programming. Does anyone know of any good resources focusing on the "what" (ie. the data) of functional ui programming?
A data model for user interfaces…? What about HTML+CSS? Seems like data to me :-)
> User agents are not required to present HTML documents in any particular way. However, this section provides a set of suggestions for rendering HTML documents that, if followed, are likely to lead to a user experience that closely resembles the experience intended by the documents' authors. > - https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/rendering.html#rendering it is a model, but personally, I think it's not a great model for user interfaces
Well, it’s declarative, pure data, pretty much universally available, and CSS makes presentation uniform across browsers. I am unsure what exactly it is you’re after…? You just don’t like HTML and want some other declarative UI language…? Well, pick any UI toolkit and it’s bound to have some declarative format, especially now that the reactive paradigm has become the norm.
one of my motivations is to escape the tyranny of the browser. I written some of my thoughts https://blog.phronemophobic.com/html-tax.html would love to know some of the non-html examples you're thinking of
Pretty much any popular UI toolkit that is less than 10-15 years old is declarative, e.g. Flutter, SwiftUI, React Native. You lose a lot of reach when you leave HTML, though.
> You lose a lot of reach when you leave HTML, though. I'm not actually sure that's true. the most portable user interfaces are typically those founds in games, which natively run on a wider range of platforms
I really like the direction of SwiftUI, but SwiftUI and React native are built on platform specific, concrete library classes
Coincidently, I am working on a project that specifically “focus on the what instead of the how”. https://app.pitch.com/app/presentation/a760be33-4a5b-4e73-bd25-07387cd197dc/d673c9f7-c98f-45eb-a6ff-668b42909f1c (page 18)
@vincent.cantin , looks interesting! in the todo example, https://github.com/green-coder/vrac-samples/blob/master/src/main/sample3/core.cljs , how do the todo items get updated and how do new tod items get created?
http://worrydream.com/MagicInk/ This is much more conceptual than technical, but I think Bret Victor makes a very compelling case that before diving into the "what" of reactive UI programming, you should also ask the "why" - as in, "do I need interactivity to solve this design problem at all?" Considering this perspective will improve whatever the "what" of your UI turns out to be.
i’ve drawn heavy inspiration from bret victor’s work. my take away is that including interactivity in the model is very important. see https://youtu.be/ZfytHvgHybA
@smith.adriane Vrac is a wip. The sample code that you saw is not reactive, need to wait for the next milestone for something usable, will be full stack reactive.
do you have a plan for how reactive will work?
or an example?
The Vrac templates are pure data which look similar to render functions. They are used as a base for deriving rendering and data management systems. How the reactivity will work is an implementation detail. One of the goals in Vrac is to avoid having the user know the implementation (and optimizations) specifics.
is ‘clicking the “add todo” button should add a todo’ encoded anywhere within the template?
or would that be specified somewhere outside of the template?
It should trigger an event, handled in a re-frame way, and if the data changes, the UI will update.
Yes, it would be specified outside of the template. Possibly in the same component, but outside of the template section.
do you have an example of what that might look like?
interesting
You will have to wait for the next milestone for a working example.
do you have pseudo code?
You are welcome to join #vrac
sweet. sorry for bombarding you with questions. it sounds really interesting!
I use linux on my desktop and mac on my laptop and I was able to re-use about 95% of my stuff from linux on the new mac with homebrew. I share all my shell configs, git repos, etc between linux and mac. Just a couple tweaks checking for macos and setting a few settings and aliases differently. I share the same dotfiles on both OSes.
The hardest part is substituting ctrl for command, I am constantly hitting ctrl-c instead of cmd-c.
can you go into more detail? what specifically would you expect to find?
anything on building user interfaces based on data and pure functions that's not FRP would be great, but ideally, a data model for user interfaces. as an example, I used to think of databases based on a procedural interface, but datomic has provided a model focusing on the data model.
another analogous example would be the associative and seq abstractions for the data structures that clojure uses. I've been working on trying to build UI abstraction for UI data and it seems pretty straightforward, but I'm having trouble finding other reference points and it's tough coming up with good names.
most of the resources I can find are either heavily entrenched in OO or are based on FRP