Clojurians Log v2

Anyone have any idea when State of Clojure 2021 results will be available?

Hey, is there any reason to use tmux other than to have multiple terminal windows? Can't I just make more actual terminal windows?

I only use tmux when connecting to remote hosts so I can reattach to the running session if I’m disconnected (so I don’t lose the context.) Locally I start multiple terminal emulators.

I guess it’s also useful when using a terminal emulator without support for a scrollback buffer ?

Yeah working over ssh is the most obvious use case I personally use tmux to group terminals per project as well. Navigation seems much easier to me that way.

I actually do everything (cli related) within tmux sessions

and there's ~0 overhead during context switching Just type Ctrl-b s and choose the session of the new context No existing context? Ctrl-b Ctrl-c to create a new one

I use i3(-gaps) so I just spawn off a new terminal. I do love me some i3. It's a tiling window manager, so no windows overlaps. I'm on Arch btw.

You can have a session for project A with 1 window and 2 panes split vertically Another session for project B with x windows, the first having 4 panes, a quarter of the screen each. (using the definitions of tmux for sessions/windows/panes) Can't really fathom how I'd be able to keep my terminals organized without tmux.

@dharrigan Yeah I'm also using a tiling wm (sway) on fedora but still can't live without tmux 😛

🙂

tmux takes time to feel comfortable with (took me a couple of months I think, I'm not sure, it's been more than 5 years now). It's been a few years since I've settled with a specific workflow but I definitely haven't mastered it yet. I recommend https://github.com/gpakosz/.tmux

I use Terminator for having multiple panes. Really like it, navigating between panes and creating / killing panes feels very intuitive in it

sorry, just been delayed for silly reasons like waiting on various humans to ok it :)

I don't think Slack provides the ability to limit who can do this

I've had several times where I needed to restart my window manager and it was nice to not lose my terminal session

Maybe some of you (other) elitists would find this interesting 😝 https://georgestocker.com/2021/03/28/no-one-gives-a-shit-what-programming-language-you-use/

the zeal of the newly converted

luckily I can just use blue collar Clojure then, if my customer doesn't find not using static typing unethical 😅

I mean, elitism is relative ;)

who is the newly converted in this case? I mean, the uncle has been talking about Clojure for a while now?

I guess he preaches like he started yesterday

Ive watched a couple of streams of him writing clojure. I hope people don't write clojure how he writes clojure.

Just looks like the TweetRageMachine pumping on all cylinders to me

I think most programmers would agree that it is objectively less productive to use assembly language for most application development nowadays.

That is an opinion that might have differed in the 1950s and 1960s, but technology has changed.

There is certainly less difference in productivity between Clojure and Python, and agreed that there are people who make poor arguments for one versus another programming language. That doesn't mean they are all poor arguments.

As noted in the September piece Stocker wrote about “Uncle Bob” (linked from the above), Mr Martin unfortunately espouses some pretty unpleasant things outside the software world and I’m one of many who stopped following him on Twitter because of the non-software stuff he would spew. I would hate to see his reputation tarnish Clojure’s good name by association… 😐

Mostly it's a way to have multiple terminal windows for me - just got used to it.

It's pretty portable, scriptable and so on. With some tweaks it has good history search, yanking text from command output (or logs). Persistent in different forms, you can save sessions or create per project configuration.

For certain tasks it's been a godsend, like controlling multiple computers for various cluster maintenance tasks with the multi cursor thing.

> Pick the language and stack based on your team’s needs and comfort, based on your business’s need and risk tolerance, and based on how easy it will be to produce software for your target users in that language or framework. It’s worth point out, though, that unless you invest time in programming for its own sake and weekend hobby projects, that answer is never really going to change. If you were writing C++ in 1990, at what point was your team magically more comfortable and faster in Java than C++ if no-one ever wrote a line of Java outside of a commercial project? Plus, there’s a fairly large element of self-selection with teams. Someone with mostly C++ experience probably isn’t going to apply to a team writing in Haskell.

Exactly, at work we obviously have to "based on your team’s needs and comfort" all the time, but no one learns anything new outside of work and no one has time to learn at work. IT means all our projects are C# backend and plain vanilla JS front end. ANd when I say plain JS, I mostly mean the sort of JS that runs on IE9

On the other project it's all Visual Basic

because thats what that team knows

Its like if we were lumberjacks, with a forest to cut down with only blunt axes for tools. You can point out there's chainsaws over there, but if no one can use the chainsaw... There's not much you can do, you can point out the chainsaw has lots of instruction manuals, but people will tell you they don't have time to read a chainsaw manual, I mean they're busy! Look at all those trees they've got to cut down! And you can't suggest to them to learn how to use a chainsaw in their own time, because after work they're exhausted, I mean, they've been hacking down trees all day!

There’s also a fairly big difference between woodworking tools and programming tools - programming tools tend to get better with a larger community, while woodworking tools largely don’t.

You don't want to follow the advice of people who give poor reasons for choosing a language/environment, certainly. But his article's recommendation comes down to "what your team supports, and is a good fit for the application". If he thinks that "what your team supports" is somehow going to avoid poor reasoning for choice of language/environment, well, that depends completely on how reasonable your team is.

And his software views are kinda questionable, too - https://www.hillelwayne.com/uncle-bob/

what to avoid in particular? (I’m not familiar with uncle bob)

Well, I've never seen him once use a REPL. He uses the same test driven techniques you would use in java and C#. From what I've seen of him actually typing in teh code he never uses parinfer / paredit so he's manually organising his parens. His code is verbose. I don't think he really thinks functionally... I think he's basically doing what he would do if he were coding java, except he has all these parens now all over the place 😄

thanks for the answer, it makes sense as feedback

If he doesn't use a REPL, does he restart his Java process for every eval?

he will definitely love babashka if that is the case

From what I saw, he was wrirting tests, then running them to see them fail. Then he writes his clojure code and sort of tries to work out what his code is doing and why it isnt' working by creating more and more tests

I absolutely think that is valid when doing C# / Java, but I think ifyou have a REPL and evaluate as you go you can reason about your code and see what is happening much more clearly, rather than editing a test to write to output to see what the result of a function call was

It feels like that approach to me is definitely hard mode clojure

Also, even if you’re focused on delivering to a consumer, playing around with new techniques and practicing your skills is pretty common. I doubt that the woodworkers he knows are experimenting with different advanced joints on a project they’re making for a particular person without trying them out first.

And cooks definitely spend time making food that’s not actually intended to be eaten by diners

:rolling_on_the_floor_laughing: I hadn’t seen that hit piece — but I do mostly agree with the sentiment there. There’s Bob’s Way and then there’s the Wrong Way!

> I think he's basically doing what he would do if he were coding java, except he has all these parens now all over the place Sounds like a description for a generic lisp noob. Maybe that's why it seems like the parens are such a weird and overwhelming thing (imperative programming in lisp causes paren overload) :thinking_face:

scriptable is what I love about tmux

you can send keypresses to a session for example, or read the terminal buffer

One way to do it is to sneak a new technology in via the back door (by solving a problem with it), rinse & repeat, eventually the company starts hiring people to use technology X

To get around the stable-point that arises if "stick to the tools your team knows" is overemphasized wrt "best tool for the job"

By “unpleasant things” do you mean politics? I also had to stop follow some well-known people from computer science because of their toxic non-software opinions.

George Stocker doesn’t care what languages you use but believes that: “I believe through Test Driven Development, we can double productivity in some cases. This isn’t a pipe dream — it’s possible right now. I’ve been a software developer for 20 years, and worked in teams of all shapes and sizes. I cut my teeth on Perl, a gloriously productive language that is still useful today.” Sounds like a plan. I should contact him right away to double my productivity.

“gloriously productive” is my favorite part (from here https://georgestocker.com)

You know you gotta do it:

Hello... if I was looking for freelance clojurescript help, is there a preferred channel to post the details? Thank you.

@skohler Probably #remote-jobs (or #jobs if you need folks “on-site”).