Clojurians Log v2

After using evil mode emacs for a long time, I figured I should try vim again, since I often find myself using vim in other circumstances. The problem is that I don’t really know vim. I only really know vi. I have Pathogen running, and I tried installing vim-surround.vim, vim-sexp/plugin/sexp.vim, vim-sexp/autoload/sexp.vim, sexp_mappings_for_regular_people.vim, and repeat.vim all under my ~/.vim/bundle directory. But this is where my lack of vim gets me. I don’t know how to enable any of this stuff. I had naively thought it would work when I run vim on a .clj file, but doing things like inserting a ( character doesn’t do anything special. Does anyone know how I can turn it on please?

try adding vim-clojure-static - that should make clojure hook in to use the lisp / sexp oriented plugins

there's also :set lisp which can be run in any buffer and should turn on all your lisp-specific plugins in that buffer if they are loaded

Hmmm… is there some way I can check if any of these loaded

The runtimepath value is picking up all the subdirectories under ~/.vim/bundle so I figure that pathogen is working

and I see that omnifunc is set to clojurecomplete#Complete, so it looks like something that does Clojure stuff came in

But I load a .clj file and open a paren, and nothing happens. :set lisp did not change anything

you can try calling any : command defined by one of the plugins I guess? - if you use the new /pack/ alternative to bundle (built into vim) there's a :packadd command

do you just have this issue with clojure files? are any other plugins loaded?

I also have elm.vim and rust.vim

everything else is clojure stuff (which have only been added in the last 20 minutes)

I suppose I need to read a book on vim

check out :he pack - it's the thing that comes with the editor, so one less plugin to use, and has some inspectability and is well documented

It’s a bit of a shame. I had it installed on a previous system (just following the same directions), and I could get simple functionality. I had thought it would be easy to install the same way

for the basic sanity check, you've restarted vim since adding the plugins right?

yes

Is there any way to see if something from the plugins has been loaded?

you'll need to check the docs for pathogen for that

oh - s/`:he pack`/`:he packages` - that's the better doc node for the built in directory based plugin package installation

there's also debug-mode vim -D ... but I haven't used it, just read about it

OK… so I want to move everything into start directories under pack

that's what I'd recommend yeah, it accepts the same plugins that pathogen uses

OK. I’ll see what this does

not just pack/start pack/foo/start - I just use pack/default/start but the middle dir helps you keep things more organized

To be honest, I don’t know if I’m loading anything properly at all. If I’m not, then this might fix it. If I am, and it’s just not working for another reason, then this will do nothing

fair enough!

yup, I saw the suggested structure

I just tried vim -D for the first time - works with vim but not nvim it seems

OK. It seems to have loaded. I removed the pathogen infect line from .vimrc, and when I say :set then I see a whole lotta things like lispwords and indentExpr. So it must be picking things up

still no paredit though

lispwords comes with vim

Oh, so vim knows Clojure?

it gets set locally by vim-clojure-static with clojure apropriate words though

no, vim has an abstract concept of "a lisp" and how to behave differently with lisps

I’m seeing Clojure specific words in there

oh, then that's a good sign

`lispwords=as->,binding,bound-fn,case,catch,cond->,cond->>,condp,def,definline,definterface,defmacro,defmethod,defmulti,defn,defn-,defon ce,defprotocol,defrecord,defstruct,deftest,deftest-,deftype,doseq,dotimes,doto,extend,extend-protocol,extend-type,fn,for,if,if-let,if-not ,if-some,let,letfn,locking,loop,ns,proxy,reify,set-test,testing,when,when-first,when-let,when-not,when-some,while,with-bindings,with-in-s tr,with-local-vars,with-open,with-precision,with-redefs,with-redefs-fn,with-test`

perhaps you need to run the command that actually turns on vim-sexp (though I see nothing like that in my own config...)

perhaps vim does come with a clojure filetype nowadays - you could check by starting with no config file

vim -u NONE to skip init and plugins, vim -u NORC to get plugins but no vimrc

Well, I’m losing syntax highlighting

there's also the fact that vim and nvim put plugins and config in different places

:syntax on fixes that

OK… but it’s a different color scheme 🙂

:colorscheme ...

anyway, removing telling it to skip config files / plugins is a good way to get a baseline

It looks like packages are being loaded just fine. The issue is that neither paredit nor sexp do anything

are you using vim-clojure-static ?

I wasn’t, but then I added it

is it better to have it?

not sure, I always use it

I’m sort of expecting someone to say, “Oh, you have xyz set. That stops it from working.” I will then confess that I am an idiot who knows nothing about computers, and we can get on with our day 🙂

What doesn't work for you?

If I type ( then I don’t get a corresponding closing paren

Do you have paredit installed or just sexp?

I don't have paredit, and I get that behavior -

% ls ~/.config/nvim/pack/default/start 
airline         cucumber  fzf.vim  gundo         orgmode   tags       utl
airline-themes  fugitive  gnupg    ingo-library  outliner  tags-te
clojure-static  fzf       guile    neoterm       sexp      ultisnips

I tried paredit, but because it didn’t do that, I switched to sexp

Does vim "recognize" the filetype as clojure?

What happens when you ":set ft=clojure"

unless I'm reading that wrong, clojure-static and sexp are my only clojure specific plugins

when I say :set ft it writes:

filetype=clojure

So it recognizes the ft, but the plugins don't work? Does any other plugin not related to clojure work?

I’ve only used plugins for syntax highlighting, so outside of that, I don’t know

if vim-sexp is working - run this in any buffer regardless of file type and it will cause ( to insert ()

:imap <silent><buffer> (               <Plug>(sexp_insert_opening_round)

if that fails to insert () or errors that sexp_insert_opening_round doesn't exist, sexp wasn't loaded

that gets mapped by default in clojure files

That's the thing I dislike about pathogen - no feedback... Any way I can interest you in using https://github.com/junegunn/vim-plug instead? The instructions are very simple and it fetches and loads the plugins for you. Also, are you using Vim or Neovim? Which version?

@nirrub I already suggested moving to the built in vim plugin management...

I don't see why one would use a third party package for that these days

Vim-clojure-static shouldn't be necessary. It's included with vim. It sounds like vim-sexp isn't loaded @quoll

I don't think now is the time to be guessing about package managers

TIL - I guess I did set up my config a very long time ago

@quoll how are you using pathogen?

So. You can get a newer version by going direct. Keep it

@noisesmith got me to change to pack

But minimization is better right

indeed - precisely why I suggested switching to the built in packaging instead of figuring out how to debug pathogen LOL

OK… neither of these happened

😂 ok. How did you set that up?

I entered it, with no problems

that's thanks to <silent> I bet, but yeah I think that proves it wasn't loaded

then when I went to insert mode and tried to type a ( it appeared to hang. I press Ctrl-C, and I get a screen full of:

lug><Plug><Plug><Plug><Plug><Plug><Plug><Plug><Plug><Plug><Plug><Plug><Plug><Plug><Plug><Plug><Plug><Plug><Plug><Plug><Plug><Plug><Plug><Plug><Plug><Plug><Plug><Plug><Plug><Plug><Plug><Plug><Plug><Plug><Plug><Plug><Plug><Plug><Plug><Plug><Plug><Plug><Plug><Plug><Plug><Plug><Plug><Plug><Plug><Plug><Plug><Plug><Plug><Plug><Plug><Plug><Plug><Plug><Plug><Plug><Plug><Plug><Plug><Plug><Plug><Plug><Plug><Plug><Plug><Plug><Plug><Plug><Plug><Plug><Plug><Plug><Plug><Plug><Plug><Plug><Plug><Plug><Plug><Plug><Plug><Plug><Plug><Plug><Plug><Plug><Plug><Plug><Plug><Plug><Plug><Plug><Plug><Plug><Plug><Plug><Plug><Plug>

um wow

And do you use vim version 8 that actually has it?

Vim 7 has it too... It's many years old.

Anyway, doesn't matter :)

Always good to just operate at the rtp right.

I created ~/.vim/pack/default/start, and started putting everything in there

I suspect that an entry was added for individual files instead of the whole repo

I’m currently on Vim 8.1.2292

@quoll how did you put it there

cp

Also, I removed the infect line in my .vimrc

@quoll could you do find in that folder? I want to double check what you've got exactly.

Probably worth running echo &rtp after startup

@noisesmith so, totally separate conversation, dein is faster than the package functionality

I’ve put some vim files in directly. For some things I’ve done a git clone. So it’s messy

$ find . -type f
./indent/clojure.vim
./ftplugin/clojure.vim
./repeat.vim
./ftdetect/clojure.vim
./rust/indent/rust.vim
./rust/ftplugin/rust.vim
./rust/ftplugin/rust/tagbar.vim
./rust/LICENSE-APACHE
./rust/ctags/rust.ctags
./rust/test/Dockerfile
./rust/test/coverage.vader
./rust/test/vimrc
./rust/test/.gitignore
./rust/test/sample.rs
./rust/test/run-tests
./rust/syntax_checkers/rust/cargo.vim
./rust/syntax_checkers/rust/rustc.vim
./rust/ftdetect/rust.vim
./rust/plugin/rust.vim
./rust/plugin/cargo.vim
./rust/README.md
./rust/ISSUE_TEMPLATE.md
./rust/.vintrc.yml
./rust/.gitignore
./rust/doc/rust.txt
./rust/autoload/rust.vim
./rust/autoload/cargo/quickfix.vim
./rust/autoload/rust/debugging.vim
./rust/autoload/rust/delimitmate.vim
./rust/autoload/rustfmt.vim
./rust/autoload/cargo.vim
./rust/after/syntax/rust.vim
./rust/.git/config
./rust/.git/shallow
./rust/.git/objects/61/14b747b578814c81f0a7577e94e134ace03ae8
./rust/.git/objects/92/885e74f3c020f38ed5c456c36a7844c52cbe9a
./rust/.git/objects/68/bc584564015f3c173ce567f6c2c0a4c2841e1b
./rust/.git/objects/32/86ab2a84757044457ed1fbd2e11c0c026f53dc
./rust/.git/objects/51/adf5f5f74d196abfcdd1aca8bd5899b756c6c7
./rust/.git/objects/5f/e77ccb964f4011c480d7047c677985e12caada
./rust/.git/objects/9c/b1b4801ebc06bb56f85fa272488edb05e98b75
./rust/.git/objects/9c/8e6be762cc67efebbd72408a07ca8925f200f6
./rust/.git/objects/a4/7a75a22040a0ab92b4591d16ae51cd84d4839f
./rust/.git/objects/b5/d40e2f59c0d2803d6452f8bbbdf4e704719abc
./rust/.git/objects/ad/f2d4b0fe4ffba4e14cb3f80383ca2d2c3fea0f
./rust/.git/objects/d0/652ec8f4ed4ff67f1493803a01169f478061b4
./rust/.git/objects/d6/0a3d3a10a9d681af47444cc1e57ba311347744
./rust/.git/objects/d6/e51180aebb0f4a9519e7cab840889d58497bb7
./rust/.git/objects/ae/307a0bc9904a4f2c6c2469b0f57aa581d1378e
./rust/.git/objects/fc/681cc29771771526b4901db2dc189c4aeed2d5
./rust/.git/objects/fd/b2d39fb04b139fcdb9b707f9b2ccc219566632
./rust/.git/objects/e3/8d1641bd14493aac13e70a436c60339f3c4490
./rust/.git/objects/e3/75078549c39292572b07cdb7b1b7a381ae1e5f
./rust/.git/objects/c8/4c49e9aabf99b0a452dd5b6e40c7a7ddaea51a
./rust/.git/objects/fb/16fc72e081199d3e1532ea4ab89f5a94207c7d
./rust/.git/objects/4e/c13dc4e75652fc085aff4a585ead2a5fba936e
./rust/.git/objects/16/fe87b06e802f094b3fbb0894b137bca2b16ef1
./rust/.git/objects/87/de60989266eab5cc95589ca2d92ad7a6d3bc8c
./rust/.git/objects/7e/2e9fd6ee74994b8978c0612ea06dc2e23b7ac6
./rust/.git/objects/10/afd1558d87ba2d4cab58b1aa8003abfc4183b6
./rust/.git/objects/5c/d413cc37b141a54cac08b5b46b810845db287a
./rust/.git/objects/09/14f1b532a4c33c0736d09da5b40324988b2b10
./rust/.git/objects/91/192c39ff7a17ce599d56bb386b6a54e91fc51e
./rust/.git/objects/62/bfc652d52f2d0696ea9361d16690a2d71c2441
./rust/.git/objects/96/b443c87b9fe3c0a53ff567e2b086aa61e0d730
./rust/.git/objects/06/36a117f26cfc8fb55db8ff2491ff060087b935
./rust/.git/objects/99/9326978bb10914ab7f1a25deb24b320a01deeb
./rust/.git/objects/0a/56e3fc5d8cbcd1fda80cafa819b3972e27e455
./rust/.git/objects/90/be1c7cd7d823329fdb8c33de46b1370dad8843
./rust/.git/objects/d4/f474e653a877cda610a7c1b9cce585c7a245a8
./rust/.git/objects/b1/1d4181198fa7129df853322f899225de31a3ab
./rust/.git/objects/aa/ba3dacb0e3d1673cf09658612a6768f8a6f03b
./rust/.git/objects/af/b10a183009146ab083fd78157fda896a33c64e
./rust/.git/objects/a8/c63b6053bd4be47142d89fbc30eeaffba71747
./rust/.git/objects/ef/8de3e1ab22cfe06597d9b87a71541a194055c6
./rust/.git/objects/e6/9282e381bc07152cc7598f21f3162e4bbb1f22
./rust/.git/objects/e6/9de29bb2d1d6434b8b29ae775ad8c2e48c5391
./rust/.git/objects/f7/b6953c757742e077f77410fb82ae18715c9712
./rust/.git/objects/f7/f1533d40e1f4c295ec478cc6fbafa2ccfac5d7
./rust/.git/objects/fa/69300e5723165e2cff621efb266282114138f0
./rust/.git/objects/77/e28e74aa4ca27d2e28a505812bdc55b05cfc64
./rust/.git/objects/70/56d533c039d1f7739e3810ea3e563088399c5d
./rust/.git/objects/84/734e7d41d1936af04c7f7ced9f598583d84c34
./rust/.git/objects/4a/419f406c77f0de55ddfd8b718962a0e71d4410
./rust/.git/objects/25/87add766e467baf50862c795a82c718349aa2b
./rust/.git/HEAD
./rust/.git/info/exclude
./rust/.git/logs/HEAD
./rust/.git/logs/refs/heads/master
./rust/.git/logs/refs/remotes/origin/HEAD
./rust/.git/description
./rust/.git/hooks/commit-msg.sample
./rust/.git/hooks/pre-rebase.sample
./rust/.git/hooks/pre-commit.sample
./rust/.git/hooks/applypatch-msg.sample
./rust/.git/hooks/fsmonitor-watchman.sample
./rust/.git/hooks/pre-receive.sample
./rust/.git/hooks/prepare-commit-msg.sample
./rust/.git/hooks/post-update.sample
./rust/.git/hooks/pre-applypatch.sample
./rust/.git/hooks/pre-push.sample
./rust/.git/hooks/update.sample
./rust/.git/refs/heads/master
./rust/.git/refs/remotes/origin/HEAD
./rust/.git/index
./rust/.git/packed-refs
./rust/syntax/rust.vim
./rust/.travis.yml
./rust/compiler/cargo.vim
./rust/compiler/rustc.vim
./rust/LICENSE-MIT
./elm/indent/elm.vim
./elm/ftplugin/elm.vim
./elm/LICENSE
./elm/ftdetect/elm.vim
./elm/README.md
./elm/doc/elm-vim.txt
./elm/doc/tags
./elm/autoload/elm/io.vim
./elm/.git/config
./elm/.git/objects/pack/pack-91ae275cd15300b17441773c51e0de70d40299ee.pack
./elm/.git/objects/pack/pack-91ae275cd15300b17441773c51e0de70d40299ee.idx
./elm/.git/HEAD
./elm/.git/info/exclude
./elm/.git/logs/HEAD
./elm/.git/logs/refs/heads/master
./elm/.git/logs/refs/remotes/origin/HEAD
./elm/.git/description
./elm/.git/hooks/commit-msg.sample
./elm/.git/hooks/pre-rebase.sample
./elm/.git/hooks/pre-commit.sample
./elm/.git/hooks/applypatch-msg.sample
./elm/.git/hooks/prepare-commit-msg.sample
./elm/.git/hooks/post-update.sample
./elm/.git/hooks/pre-applypatch.sample
./elm/.git/hooks/pre-push.sample
./elm/.git/hooks/update.sample
./elm/.git/refs/heads/master
./elm/.git/refs/remotes/origin/HEAD
./elm/.git/index
./elm/.git/packed-refs
./elm/syntax/elm.vim
./sexp_mappings_for_regular_people.vim
./sexp.vim
./README.markdown
./surround.vim
./autoload/clojurecomplete.vim
./autoload/sexp.vim
./.git/ORIG_HEAD
./.git/config
./.git/objects/pack/pack-187a88017b0b4b80320453122bef3d8c49b437ff.pack
./.git/objects/pack/pack-e1cae023eb0b5c1cd4077d825f6e39f4503e840a.idx
./.git/objects/pack/pack-187a88017b0b4b80320453122bef3d8c49b437ff.idx
./.git/objects/pack/pack-b82e26e3bde859c755c4dff5e60baf124af7a42b.pack
./.git/objects/pack/pack-b82e26e3bde859c755c4dff5e60baf124af7a42b.idx
./.git/objects/pack/pack-e1cae023eb0b5c1cd4077d825f6e39f4503e840a.pack
./.git/HEAD
./.git/info/exclude
./.git/logs/HEAD
./.git/logs/refs/heads/master
./.git/logs/refs/remotes/origin/issue-77
./.git/logs/refs/remotes/origin/HEAD
./.git/logs/refs/remotes/origin/master
./.git/description
./.git/hooks/commit-msg.sample
./.git/hooks/pre-rebase.sample
./.git/hooks/pre-commit.sample
./.git/hooks/applypatch-msg.sample
./.git/hooks/fsmonitor-watchman.sample
./.git/hooks/pre-receive.sample
./.git/hooks/prepare-commit-msg.sample
./.git/hooks/post-update.sample
./.git/hooks/pre-merge-commit.sample
./.git/hooks/pre-applypatch.sample
./.git/hooks/pre-push.sample
./.git/hooks/update.sample
./.git/refs/heads/master
./.git/refs/tags/vim-release-011
./.git/refs/remotes/origin/issue-77
./.git/refs/remotes/origin/HEAD
./.git/refs/remotes/origin/master
./.git/index
./.git/packed-refs
./.git/FETCH_HEAD
./LICENSE.txt
./syntax/clojure.vim
./clj/vim/test-runtime.vim
./clj/project.clj
./clj/test/vim_clojure_static/syntax_test.clj
./clj/test/vim_clojure_static/indent_test.clj
./clj/bin/syntime
./clj/dev-resources/test-inherit-indent.out
./clj/dev-resources/test-reader-conditional-indent.in
./clj/dev-resources/test-multibyte-indent.txt
./clj/dev-resources/test-dispatch-macro-indent.in
./clj/dev-resources/test-basic-sexp-indent.txt
./clj/dev-resources/test-reader-conditional-indent.out
./clj/dev-resources/test-side-effects-in-indentexpr.in
./clj/dev-resources/test-dispatch-macro-indent.out
./clj/dev-resources/test-inherit-indent.in
./clj/dev-resources/test-side-effects-in-indentexpr.out
./clj/.gitignore
./clj/src/vim_clojure_static/test.clj
./clj/src/vim_clojure_static/generate.clj

I think something has gone wrong here. surround.vim should be in a plugin directory

yeah - I try to obey occam's razor with my setup, and always considered third package management an unneeded entity :D

In my (very) humble opinion - it's just more intuitive than pack - you write the names of the plugins, issue a command, and they get installed to wherever it's needed. You get builtin nifty stuff like seeing which packages are installed, a single command to update etc. Just easier to grok IMHO (that's about vim-plug)

but I'll consider that if my startup time gets painful

OK. I’ll clear it out and git clone them all from scratch

If that's not a problem, that'd be good I think

:thumbsup: - that's a fair argument, we are discussing similar in this thread https://clojurians.slack.com/archives/C0DF8R51A/p1593539395294400

Each plugin should end up with its own directory

I did put them in directly. But looking now, it seems that I stuffed the moving for something. There’s at least one directory whose contents were moved rather than the directory

It wasn’t like that under pathogen

OK. I blew everything away. Copied back in my elm and rust directories

Let us know if that works. I appreciate you taking time doing that again.

then in the .vim/pack/default/start directory I ran:

git clone <git://github.com/tpope/vim-fireplace.git>
git clone <git://github.com/tpope/vim-classpath.git>
git clone <git://github.com/guns/vim-clojure-static.git>
git clone <https://github.com/vim-scripts/paredit.vim>

How's it looking?

Starting vim now takes about 5 seconds

I open a .clj file. Press o to enter insert mode. Press (. I get a ( character and nothing else

That is vim-classpath. The good news is that your plugins are loading I guess.

I personally wouldn't recommend vim classpath. But that's because I always start a repl anyway.

Happy to remove it 🙂

shifted it out. It starts quickly now

So in this case you've selected paredit.vim, which should be providing the pair matching functionality I think.

It does provide it

@quoll does :help paredit work?

ah. I have it now!

Great!

I'm glad it's working.

Well, now that I have one of them working… what I was seeing online was that sexp was better, due to a “repeat” issue?

And thank you

They're different - both support s-expression level editing, but paredit tries to keep you in balance (parens wise 😉) while sexp doesn't AFAIK

Ah, OK. Thank you

Hey guys. I'm new to Clojure, trying to setup vim. So far I have it working with nREPL + conjure plugin. What other plugins would be essential to easily modify parens/edit text?

BTW - I have colleagues that swear by parinfer, but it's really not for me (keeps parens balanced by level of indentation)

I would say that vim-sexp is better. They keep you balanced but in different ways. Vim-sexp gives you tools to modify sexpr in a way that keeps them balanced. Paredit overrides vim built ins to try and automatically keep things in balance. The paredit model is very emacsy, and the sexp model is very vimy. I'd say paredit is easier to start with, but sexp is more powerful long term.

^ @mitesh applies to you too :)

Yeah was just reading up on it haha! Thanks

+1 for vim-sexp

I might need to make the shift to vim-sexp, as I can’t get slurp or barf to work (I really wish there were better names for those)

leader and > (that is shift+.) - while standing on the parentheses

Also vim-sexp-mappings-for-regular-people or whatever it's called

to elaborate on vim-sexp: "paredit" tries to act like the emacs plugin of the same name, and offers the same operations, "vim-sexp" uses the vim native concept of "text objects" so that you can use the same thinking process editing a lisp as any other structured input in vim

and leader is \ by default, right?

Yup

On mobile, so tried to keep it short. But yeah, there's a whole blog post in comparing the approaches.

the < or > denote the direction the parentheses will move when you issue the command. So, they'll either slurp or barf - depends if you're on the opening parens or the closing one

apparently not. But, I just added:

let mapleader="\\"

:thumbsup:

No idea what the leader was when I wasn’t setting it. I couldn’t figure it out

also, for anyone using vim but not thinking in terms of text-objects yet, I highly recommend spending a few hours on it, it was a massive level up in my vim usage

good rule of thumb, if you use h/j/k/l for all your movement and backspace to make changes, text-objects could change your life

vim learning levels: 1. disable arrow keys 2. disable hjkl

Huh. I got a bit confused for a while there. There is no default leader on the mac

3. disable insert, replace, tabs, and visual modes or maybe that's -1

oh man, that's pretty far

I haven't even gone to level 2 yet

paredit seems quite confusing, it's not letting me delete parens, or add/wrap new ones easily (my bad at not having read :h paredit but I thought it would be intuitive enough, guess not). I think I'll just disable it for now until I'm more familiar with clojure

in all honesty I use all these things, but I rarely touch the arrow keys (I found it handy to bind the arrows to the vim-sexp "weird" operations)

oh interesting

one thing i like about vim-plug is that it updates all the plugins in parallel, instead of iterating through them one by one i haven't tried the built in vim package manager, so for all i know, it does that too, but i would guess that it probably doesn't

if you only have a handful of plugins, then it doesn't matter. i'm on the "vim as an IDE" side of the spectrum, though, and i have dozens of plugins

by updating do you mean it is looking for newer versions?

yeah, basically doing a git pull in the repo for each plugin

I don't think the builtin even has that functionality (I can imagine how I'd implement it I guess) - I've never been the type to blindly update versions of anything in my dev toolchain though (bit hard by CIDER years ago and still shy)

that's fair

it all depends on your philosophy. i have a recurring reminder that i set for myself to update all of my vim plugins and apt-get packages twice a week

every now and then i get bit by a breaking change, but i figure things don't typically change much within a few days, and it isn't too annoying to work through these small sorts of breaking changes

vs. waiting months/years and then updating and facing potentially lots of big breaking changes

i can definitely understand the "never update" philosophy that a lot of people have though

if you have a set of package versions that are working for you, and you don't have a compelling reason to update, then why bother?

mind you, for things I deploy at work, we have strict security rules and enforced updates based on CVEs

but that doesn't really effect my local dev stack so much